It’s a brand new month, and we’ve got a new theme we’ll be tackling on our show Build! We’re going to be talking about building, managing, and growing a side project you are passionate about while keeping your day job.
I’m sure you’re aware of all the benefits that come with a side project: you get the chance to explore and learn new skills. And if it’s 100% yours, you get full creative freedom.
However, you’ve probably heard that once your side project starts to grow you need to make a decision… You need to decide to go ALL-IN! You need to quit your day job and pursue that side project. Otherwise, you’re not really passionate about your idea, you’re not committed, and chances are you’ll appear less than focused!
But going all-in on a side project can be a real challenge for many of us that don’t have the means, really like our day jobs, and truly want to have something on the side.
Well, it turns out you don’t actually have to go all-in, and in today’s episode we’re going to tackle this myth. In future episodes we’ll talk about how to manage your time + energy when you physically can’t and what to do when your side project is facing a number of challenges.
To help us out I’ve invited Joy Dixon, who is a visionary and an entrepreneur with 20 years’ of industry experience. In addition to having a day job as a software engineer, Joy also runs a technical training school in Oakland, California called Mosaic Presence. So Joy is definitely someone who walks the talk!
In today’s episode you’ll learn:
Transcript
Poornima: I'm sure you've heard that it's a wonderful idea to have a side project. After all, a side project will help you learn a new skill or explore something. But once that side project starts to grow, then you've got to quit your day job and go all in. If you don't, you're just not that passionate about your idea, you're not committed, and you could appear less than focused.
Today we're going to tackle this myth, and in future segments we'll dive into how to manage your time and energy and grow your side project.
Welcome to *Build*, brought to you by Pivotal Tracker, I'm your host, Poornima Vijayashanker. Each episode of *Build* consists of conversations I have with innovators. Together we debunk myths and misconceptions that are relating to building products, companies, and your career in tact.
I've invited Joy Dixon, who is a visionary and an entrepreneur with 20 years’ of industry experience. In addition to having a day job as a software engineer, Joy also runs a technical training school called Mosaic Presence.
Thanks so much for joining us today, Joy.
Joy Dixon: Thank you for having me here, this is great.
Poornima: You and I met at a conference recently and I'd love to just get to know you a little bit more. Tell us how did you get introduced into tech?
Joy Dixon: Actually in the sixth grade. I actually had a teacher, who said, "Hey, let's do tech." She was doing computers, it was back in the day with dummy terminals. Learned Basic, line number 100, duh, duh, duh, line number 200 duh, duh, duh. That's actually how I started in tech.
Poornima: Wow, that's great that you got exposed to it so early and now it's brought you full circle where you're doing, you're teaching. Let's take it a step back, you have a day job right now. What's your day job?
Joy Dixon: I have a day job right now. My day job is writing code. I'm a senior software engineer and I write code by day and then I teach people to write code by night.
Poornima: That's awesome. Your side project is Mosaic Presence. Tell us a little bit about it.
Joy Dixon: Mosaic Presence is my thing. That is the one thing that I do. So there is, it is truly my bliss, it is a software development training school, we have a mobile focus and really it's about expanding opportunities and creating community. That is the main purpose of it all. We take brand new people, if you're a complete beginner, we'd love you there. Then we move on and we do mobile stuff, we teach people how to make SMS apps. As well as your standard apps, either iOS or Android, whatever one's your preferred flavor.
Poornima: Nice. What inspired you to start Mosaic Presence?
Joy Dixon: Actually I've been teaching for 10 years and I've taught at various companies professionally, as well as various universities, and I just really wanted to do my thing. I wanted to teach things in my way. And then also with, just when I went back to school to get my Master’s, I had to do that at night and on the weekends because I too had to keep my day job. I wanted to create a program that would allow people to also keep their day job as well acquire new skills.
Poornima: Nice. You've been doing this for how long now? Mosaic Presence.
Joy Dixon: Mosaic Presence? Two and half years. The first half year was a pilot program that I ran and that was really great, there were so many companies who allowed me to use their space. Then actually putting pen to paper and creating a business was in 2015.
When To Start A Side Project
Poornima: OK, great. How did you know you were ready to start this? I know a lot of people are like, "Oh I want to teach." Or, "I want to do this thing." Or, "I want, want, want." But it's hard to get over that hurdle and then start doing it. You mentioned you'd been teaching before, but when did you decide, “Now I want to make this into my side project and then a business?”
Joy Dixon: Into a business. This is actually really great. This is actually my second time at bat. 'Cause before I was just doing software consulting and I was building websites and doing consulting for people, and then that business went down because it did. I was working too much and not working on my business.
Actually that was really good because it gave me a foothold this time to make sure, if you're doing Mosaic Presence, you're going to make sure you spend the time doing Mosaic Presence as well as maintaining your day job.
Poornima: So you had a little bit of a, let's call it failure.
Joy Dixon: Totally.
Poornima: It taught you how to do things the second time around.
Joy Dixon: I call them learning opportunities.
What It’s Like To Hold Down A Full Time Job And Pursue A Side Project
Poornima: I like that. Then let's talk about managing the business while you're doing your day job. What's that like?
Joy Dixon: A lot. It is really a lot. It is about time slicing, honestly. I pretty much sleep between 12 and 5, those are my hours. Before I go to work, I work on Mosaic Presence and then I teach at night. It's really time management, time management is key, there are a lot of nos to invitations to go places and to socialize because the weekends are really meant for me to spend on my business.
Poornima: I want you to hold that thought 'cause we're going to talk about that in the next segment. I want to skip ahead, why even do this on the side and keep your day job? Why not just save up a bunch of money and then say, "Peace." And go and just focus on your side?
Joy Dixon: That is a definitely a way to go if that works for some people. For me, this couldn't wait. Mosaic Presence couldn't wait and I wanted to fund it and then just make it happen. I was like, let's just do this. And the way I can do this and keep it in my control is to keep my day job.
Why You Should Tell Your Employer About Your Side Project
Poornima: The other issue that I know that a lot of our audience is probably thinking about is, what about your employer? How do they feel about it?
Joy Dixon: I told them. That was really, really, really important and key. Because when you start to kind of do stuff in the dark then you really don't do it. I was very open and honest with them that this is the thing that I'm doing. I just felt better about that, just being transparent. This is my love. I'm working here and I'm going to do my best and I'm gonna work in excellence as always do but this right here is my love.
Poornima: What was their reaction to it? Was there any, "Well, we need you here?"
Joy Dixon: They basically were like, "Hey, if you can do your job."
Poornima: OK, good.
Joy Dixon: So that worked out really well. I really appreciated that.
Poornima: So finding that fit.
Joy Dixon: Yeah.
Poornima: Yeah, I talk to a lot of people who when they know that they need to financially or intellectually have that day job, they negotiate up front with that future employer or the current employer. But they don't leave them in the dark because it gets them into deep water.
Joy Dixon: It really does.
Poornima: Later on.
Joy Dixon: It really does. I would definitely agree with that and recommend that to anybody's who's doing both. It could be a little scary especially if you're already in your current job. And they're like, "Oh, why are you doing this all of a sudden? Are you planning to leave?" At the same time I think it's just better just to have it out there. And it just makes you feel better in general and you put forth your effort.
How To Share Your Side Project With Your Employer
Poornima: Do you have some techniques you can share with the audience for even how to start that conversation with a current employer?
Joy Dixon: I would really find somebody who you feel safe with. If it's not your manger. Even if it's not, just like, "Hey." Have the dialogue and then at that point in time you do need to move it up the chain. But I would check all the lovely documents that they have for you to check. To see if this is even OK.
Poornima: That's true.
Joy Dixon: Before you even have a conversation. 'Cause that's really the challenge is the conflict piece.
Poornima: I do know some places there are very, very strict where you're not even allowed to do things like, "Oh, I took $100 for tutoring this kid on a one-off basis."
Joy Dixon: No really?
Poornima: Yeah. You're just not allowed to take money. To your point, check the documents first.
Joy Dixon: Check the documents first because there's a lot of times when people will think it's something but what's actually written on paper, 'cause that's really going to be what happens.
How To Respond To People Who Think You Aren’t “Focused”
Poornima: Aside from your employer, you probably told other people that you're working on this and on the side in addition to your day job. They were probably less than supportive. How do you manage those reactions where they're like, "Oh Joy, that's not very focused." Or, "How are you going to manage all of this? Seems like a lot."
Joy Dixon: It's really interesting 'cause part of me and the people in my life know I'm type A so they're just like, of course you are. But there are those people definitely who aren't as familiar with me or don't know me as well who do have that response. Really I just take it in and I'm like, “OK.” When you find that thing and Mosaic Presence is my thing, it actually energizes me. It energizes me and sets my energy in a space that makes me more creative, more full of life, more joyful, no pun intended. That's what I respond with that. And when people see that passion and they feel that energy then they're usually are like, "OK, keep going."
Poornima: They get it. That's good, wonderful.
Well, thank you so much Joy for sharing.
Joy Dixon: It's my pleasure. Thank you.
Poornima: Now Joy and I want to know, are you worried about going all-in on an idea and would prefer to start something on the side? You've got some concerns? Share those concerns with us in the comments below this video and we'll be sure to take a look at them and respond shortly.
That's it for this segment, be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel to receive the next segment where we'll talk about how to manage your time and your energy as it relates to your side project. Ciao for now.
This episode of *Build* is brought to you by our sponsor, Pivotal Tracker.
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Build is produced as a partnership between Femgineer and Pivotal Tracker. San Francisco video production by StartMotionMEDIA.
What Is Tech Debt And How Do You Manage It
It’s crunch time! You’ve got eager customers who are waiting for you to ship product, your teammates are eager to complete the release and move on, and you don’t want to be the bottleneck. So what to do you? You rush through writing your code and put in a quick fix.
It’s good enough to pass tests and a quick code review.
Unfortunately, crunch time doesn’t come around once in a blue moon. It happens more often than we’d like. And sadly it gets heralded by sayings like: “Move fast!” “Break things!” And, “Ship code!”
As designers, product managers, and developers we are eager to share what we’ve built with customers. However, constantly operating by the seat of our pants comes at a price and that price is tech debt.
Whether you have or haven’t heard of tech debt, I’m pretty sure you’ve experienced its effects. If you’ve been on product teams that seems to constantly be putting out fires, you’ve probably noticed that over time all those quick fixes add up. And when it comes time to build something brand new, what would normally take a few hours or days, suddenly takes weeks or months.
The reason it takes so long is because there’s a lot of cruft built up in the code base. Continuing to layer on quick fixes will only destabilize the code and impact its quality.
If you’ve struggled to deal with tech debt on your product team, or want to educate new teammates on how to manage it, then today’s Build Tip is for you!
I’m joined by Jay Hum who is a Product Manager and Pivotal, and together we’re going to be sharing:
Be sure to share the episode with your teammates to help them understand the importance of tech debt!
Want more resources on tech debt? Here's a link to the post Jay mentioned in the episode: Introduction to the Technical Debt Concept https://www.agilealliance.org/introduction-to-the-technical-debt-concept/
Transcript
Poornima: When your product has a nasty bug that's impacting a lot of users, your first priority is to put a fix in that's going to help resolve it. You might hear your developers say something like...
Developer: Yeah, I'll just put in a quick fix.
Poornima: A week may go by, maybe possibly a month, and you've got another nasty bug on your hand. Your developer might tell you...
Developer: No problem, I'll have that bug resolved by the end of the day.
Poornima: Later on, you might ask them to put in a new feature, and they may respond with...
Developer: Yeah, it's going to take a while.
Poornima: How long?
Developer: Weeks, possibly months.
Poornima: “Weeks, possibly months!?” Why so long?
Developer: Tech debt.
What is tech debt
Poornima: Wondering what's tech debt, how to avoid it, and prevent it before it gets too unwieldy? I'm going to answer these questions and many more, in today's quick *Build* tip.
Welcome to *Build*, brought to you by Pivotal Tracker. I'm your host, Poornima Vijayashanker. Today, I've got a *Build* tip for you. I'm joined by Jay Hum, who is a product manager at Pivotal. Jay, tell me what's tech debt?
Jay Hum: Tech debt is the effort that builds up when a team makes a conscience decision to implement code that's easy, instead of building out a best solution.
Poornima: OK, so what does that actually...
Jay Hum: The easy-to-implement, quick, messy code, is the debt. Like any type of debt, it accrues interest over time, and so the additional effort that is built up that could either be time, money, or resources, is the technical debt that builds up that makes it much more difficult in the long run to implement a better solution.
How to avoid tech debt
Jay Hum: Here is the interesting thing. Tech debt is usually thought of as a bad thing, something that needs to be paid down very quickly, or avoided as much as possible, or all together. However, tech debt is actually unavoidable. Much like financial debt, there is not necessarily good technical debt, but there is technical debt that you can deal with.
An example is, in the mortgage or student loan, where the principle plus the interest that you accrue could be lower than what you actually yield in terms of the investment. Any experienced or seasoned developer are always wanting to create the best possible solution that there is out there. However, sometimes you need to incur technical debt in order to get a product out to market quicker. Generally, the time to market, or the time pressure, is what makes technical debt unavoidable.
How to manage tech debt
Poornima: OK, it's unavoidable. How can we manage it, while continuing to meet customer needs and pushing features out?
Jay Hum: Here's the thing about technical debt that makes this sort of the analogy to financial debt a little dissimilar. You don't actually have to pay down technical debt. For instance, when you're building out a product or service, there could be parts of the code that aren't used very often, or are not touched, that don't need to be changed. The RY on actually paying down that debt, or refactoring doesn't get you much, or doesn't get you anything there.
One of the other ways to really look at it and approach it is build in technical debt into the product role map, or how you plan out your releases. When you think about it, you should be thinking about it in terms of what's the upside potential versus the downside risk of either paying down technical debt, or not paying down technical debt, and relate that, to again, getting a product or service out to the market quicker, or spending more time and writing more cleaner quality code.
Poornima: All right, that's great that we don't have to always have to pay down tech debt, and that it's OK to accumulate it, but how do we know when to make the trade off of paying it down, versus just letting it exist?
Jay Hum: Right, so one of the things that you want to look at, is what is the probability of the occurrence of something bad happening, or the probability of the occurrence of you having to do a major refactor because the technical debt has just gotten so big. Coupled with that, you also want to look at what is the impact.
Again, there is smaller technical debt, where the impact of paying it down is not very big. Again, there's other parts where the technical debt can be very big, could lead to a big regression, and what is the impact on the delay to the market, or the impact to the customers that are actually using your product that's in the market right now.
When you don’t need to pay down tech debt
Poornima: Do you have a example of a situation where you don't need to pay down the tech debt, versus one where you do?
Jay Hum: Sure, yeah. I think a really good example would be if you take a look at an app through your analytics, and you're looking at one of the features that you've implemented is not being used very often. This is a good example of, you probably don't want to pay down technical debt on that feature, because again, it's not a lot of people that are using it.
Versus the flip side, so if you see that there is a feature that's being used very heavily by your users, and that they're clamoring for a feature that is sort of an add on to that feature, this is an instance where you would want to pay down technical debt quickly, so that you can build out that new feature that is an add on to the existing feature.
Is it ever too late to pay down tech debt?
Poornima: What happens if you leave tech debt around for too long? Is there ever a point where it's too late to pay it down?
Jay Hum: There are instances where it is too late. Usually what that manifests itself is that you have to do a big rewrite, which not a lot of people enjoy doing, both from a customer perspective, as well as the development team. If you go back to what I said earlier, if you realize that tech debt is unavoidable, and you build it into your product strategy, and your product roadmap, then there's ways of being able to manage that tech debt at a good pace, so that you never have to end up with having to do a big rewrite.
Poornima: Thanks, Jay. This has been really helpful. Do you have any other resources for our audiences to check out?
Jay Hum: Yes, they should check out this article written by the Agile Alliance. It is called “Introduction to Technical Debt Concept,” and it goes much more deeper into some of the concepts that I discussed here around technical debt.
Poornima: Now, Jay and I want to know, how do you guys handle tech debt at your company. Let us know in the comments below this video. OK, that's it for today ‘s *Build* tip. Be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel to receive more great episodes of *Build*, and *Build* tips like today's. Special thanks to our sponsor Pivotal Tracker, for their help in producing today's episode. Ciao for now.
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Build is produced as a partnership between Femgineer ((http://femgineer.com/) and Pivotal Tracker (http://www.pivotaltracker.com/). San Francisco video production by StartMotionMEDIA (http://www.startmotionmedia.com/design/).
All this month, Karen Catlin and I have been digging into the theme of mentoring. We started out by sharing the debut Build episode on why some people are reluctant to seek mentoring, and last week we talked about how to approach mentors, set expectations, and thank them.
In today’s final episode, on mentoring for this month, we’re going to talk about what you can do to become an effective mentor yourself.
We understand that you might be reluctant to be a mentor for a number of reasons: you don’t have the time, you don’t feel qualified, or you feel like your experiences may not relate.
Don’t worry Karen and me have you covered! You’ll learn:
Transcript
Poornima: In the previous two segments, I've been talking to Karen Catlin, who is an advocate for Women in Tech, a leadership coach, and my co-author of our book, *Present! A Techie's Guide to Public Speaking*. Karen and I have been digging into the importance of mentorship. We started out by talking about why you might be reluctant to seeking a mentor. Then, we talked about how you can effectively establish the relationship. If you've missed either of those segments, I highly recommend you check out the links below this video. In this final segment, we're gonna talk about how you can become an effective mentor yourself.
Welcome back to *Build*, brought to you by Pivotal Tracker. I'm your host, Poornima Vijayashanker. Each *Build* episode consists of a series of conversations I have with innovators. Together, we debunk myths and misconceptions related to building products, companies, and your career. Now, I know at the beginning, Karen, you mentioned how you loved mentoring, because you get to learn a lot. I feel the same way. I think I actually learn more than maybe my mentees do and that's why I love doing it. Let's talk about some of the benefits that you're gonna experience should you choose to mentor.
Mentoring is a two-way street that benefits both the mentor and mentee
Karen Catlin: Sure, yes. It's definitely a two-way street. You may not know what you're gonna be learning from a mentee, but getting together, hearing about what's going on, the questions they ask, you are going to get insight into how you can benefit your career. You might just get a good, broad perspective of what's going on around your company or your industry. As I mentioned, maybe some great ideas for podcasts that I could listen to, or books I could read, or productivity apps I could use. I don't even know what's it gonna be, but I always pick up something when I talk to a mentee.
Poornima: Yeah. I feel like it's a great way to stay relevant. Especially if some of us are a little bit older and maybe we're not as in the know.
Karen Catlin: OK. OK. So one time I was talking to someone and they said, "TLDR." This was a few years ago to my credit, but I'm like, "TLDR, what's that mean?" So, I asked and they said, "Oh, just too long, didn't read." I'm like, "Oh, OK." Just now, I am able to just like, weave that into conversations and all of a sudden I seem really relevant.
Poornima: Totally. So you can speak the lingo.
Karen Catlin: Exactly.
Why a mentor doesn’t need to have the exact same experience or perspective as their mentee
Poornima: Now, when you were at Adobe, did you just mentor women or do you also mentor men as well?
Karen Catlin: Sure. As a senior woman at the company, I definitely was approached by a lot of woman for mentoring. Men approached me, too. I did definitely mentor both genders. I think it's important for a mentee to get advice from people who don't look like them, whether that is because of your gender, or your life experience, your...of other things that you're bringing to the company, bringing to the table. It's important for a mentee to get advice from people who aren't like them, because it's gonna broaden the set of advice that they're going to get, right?
Poornima: Sure.
Karen Catlin: Likewise, because mentoring is a two-way street, it's good for mentors to mentor people who don't look like them too, because, that is going to allow them to learn, get different perspectives, and all of that. I think everything is ups for grabs.
Poornima: Yeah.
Karen Catlin: Yeah.
Poornima: What about people who may worry that they don't have the same experience, or perspective, and so, they might not feel credible sharing their life experience with a mentee?
Karen Catlin: Oh my gosh. Don't overthink it. That's my advice for mentors here. The mentee has approached you because they respect you and they want to learn from you. You don't have to worry about, am I going to be able to provide just the right piece of experience or advice. Don't worry about it, just have a conversation, share stories, share your experience, it's gonna make a difference to the mentee.
What to do when you don’t have time to mentor someone
Poornima: I wanna talk about a couple of other issues that I see come up a lot when I recommend people mentor and they're resistant to. The first is time. “I'm just so busy, I have kids, I have a family, I have other obligations, I just don't have the time to be somebody's mentor.”
Karen Catlin: Yeah. Yeah. I get that. Because, we are all very busy. That said, if someone
approaches you because they wanna get your advice, and they haven't time-boxed it following my advice from an earlier segment here. Ask them, what are you really asking for here? Can we get together and maybe, you know, if you're busy, you might say, "Can we get together for a 30-minute phone call?" for example. Ask yourself, "Do I have time maybe for a 30-minute phone call?"
Chances are, you have some small segment of time that you could offer to a mentee and so, you can be responsible for saying, "Well, this is what I can give you and this is all I've got right now." If you're really too busy, you might just say, "The next two months I am just super busy on this project, can you ping me in three months’ time, and I'll bet I'll have some time for you then."
Poornima: Yeah. I think that's good. I think it's good to give people that kinda realistic picture. One thing I like to do—actually, two things I like to do—if somebody comes to me and I know they have that good directive question, like, I got this one recently, "How do you self-publish?" Well, I've already written two posts, like, pretty meaty ones. I tell them, "Read these posts and then, if you have any other questions, shoot me an email, I'm traveling a lot, I'll be sure to respond to you via email."
Trying to find a 30-minute time spot across time zones, is just not gonna work for both of us. I think that's great. The other thing I say is, and you do this because you speak at a lot of events, I say, "I'm gonna be at this event, why don't we just meet there and when I'm in between sessions, would be great to come out and have a chat with you." I think finding those opportunities, you can get more flexible.
Karen Catlin: Yeah and,doing what you can to just help the person, whether that is with your actual mentoring or making a recommendation for another mentor.
Poornima: Yeah. That's a good one.
Karen Catlin: I had times, yeah, over my career, where really my mentoring dance card was just full. I really, really couldn't take on anymore mentees. When those things happen and someone approached me for mentoring, I would explain, my mentoring dance card is full. What are you really looking for from a mentor? And then I might recommend that they reach out to someone else at my company. Right?
Poornima: Yep.
Karen Catlin: Help them, move them forward in some way.
Poornima: Definitely. I know another hurdle is relevancy. Again, kind of, oh, you know, the mentee might say, "I'm looking for somebody in data science." I might say, "I don't know anything about data science, I'm just a front-end engineer or I'm a designer, why are you approaching me?" Right? It doesn't seem like my work is exactly relevant. I don't know if this is a good thing.
Karen Catlin: Yeah. It's so funny. Just a couple days ago, a mentor, excuse me, a mentee was reaching out to me and asking, "Hey Karen, I am thinking about putting on a women's only hackathon and I'd like to get your advice about how to do this." I had to tell her, "Well actually, I have very little experience with hackathons, even though I'm an advocate for Women in Tech. I think this is a great idea, but I don't have direct relevant experience to share with you. However, I do know about this one tech company who has run a women's only hackathon." I mention the name of the company, she said, "Oh, I know people who work there, I'll reach out to my network there to find out little bit more.” Again, this notion that I pushed her forward, I helped her out without really being able to answer her direct question, whether that was on data science or a hackathon.
Poornima: Yeah.
Karen Catlin: This notion, I’ve done with so many mentees, this notion of encouraging them to think about their network. Who else could they tap to get that specific experience or advice they're looking for?
Poornima: Yeah. Part of your mentorship is also helping them see what they already got, see the resources that they have at their disposal.
Karen Catlin: Exactly.
Poornima: It's not all about you having to do the work.
Karen Catlin: Exactly.
Who need to hold a mentee accountable
Poornima: Yeah. That's great. What about accountability? A lot of times people say, "How can I hold my mentee accountable? Make sure they're hitting milestones. Make sure that they are successful?"
Karen Catlin: Yeah. Gosh. Maybe I should be doing a better job at this. I really feel that as a mentor, my job is not to take any action items from the meeting, you know, it's to provide my experience, my advice, my thoughts. But, really, I'm expecting the mentee to be taking notes, to be figuring out what they're gonna do next, and to be making progress. I don't take any of that on me, but maybe I should be, I don't know how to help them. We all benefit from having accountability partners. It's just that, as a mentor, I'm already giving a lot of my time, I don't feel I need to be doing that as well.
Poornima: OK. Maybe that's something more a sponsor would do or even a coach, if you hire them?
Karen Catlin: Yeah. A coach would definitely do that for you. Otherwise, maybe it is a buddy, or a friend, or a colleague that you might reach out to, in addition to having the mentor, you have an accountability partner, who helps make sure you're making the progress you want to make.
What to do as a mentor when someone brings you a deeply personal problem
Poornima: I've had this happen a number of times, where somebody that I mentored, I see very quickly that it is not just about getting that promotion, or improving a particular thing about their career, there's some other stuff going on. It might be a personal issue, and so, how would you recommend answering that as the mentor?
Karen Catlin: Yeah. Mentors and coaches, frankly, we're not therapists. We're not trained in helping people through some deep personal issues. I remember a situation where someone had some things going on with, I think it was a teenage child, and, even though I'm a mom of teenagers, I still felt that this was something that I did not feel qualified or really feel right about providing guidance. Happy to share what I've done as a parent in different situations, but that's not getting to the point of providing therapy, so I've really had to sort of redirect the conversation and stay away from it, frankly.
Poornima: Yeah. Set some clear boundaries and make sure that they understand that.
Karen Catlin: I'm not a therapist.
What are male allies and how to become one
Poornima: Yeah. That's fair. I wanna go back to one of the earlier things that we had talked
about around coaching people that may not look like you and I know as an advocate for Women Tech, one of things that you do is coach men to become better allies for women. Start by telling me, what exactly is a male ally?
Karen Catlin: Yeah. So, an ally is anyone who is in the majority and really has a point of privilege as a result. Maybe a little bit of power that other people don't have, because they're not in the majority. In tech, it's typically white men who have the position of power, they're the majority. So, it's an important thing for them to realize that they have this role to fill as an ally for women or anyone who's underrepresented in tech.
They have a role to play to help those people be successful, to feel that they can be...that they're welcome somewhere, that they can be included, that they can grow their career and have an impact there. A male ally, that's what I look to them to do, is to make their environments, their teams, their company culture, more welcoming and inclusive to people who don't look like them.
Poornima: How do you help men to become male allies?
Karen Catlin: Yes. I believe there are everyday, simple actions that men can take to make their environments more welcoming and inclusive. For example, and this is something that I think that pretty much every woman who's professional, or maybe working—every woman working in tech, I'll go as far as to say that, has had this experience, where they have been talking in a meeting and some man with deeper vocal chords and a louder voice, just interrupts them and sort of steers the conversation in a different direction.
There's a phrase for it, “manterrupting.” We've heard that before. What can a male ally do when they witness that behavior when they're sitting across the table and seeing it going on? They can say something with their deep, strong vocal chords, "Hey, I was actually interested to hear what Anna had to say, let's bring the conversation back to her." That's an example of an everyday action a man can take to be an ally for women in that meeting.
Poornima: Yes.
Karen Catlin: Another example, might be this whole idea-hijacking, I like to call it. Again, I think so many of us have had the experience where we have said something brilliant, awesome, in a meeting, and it kinda fell on deaf ears at the time, and then maybe a couple minutes later in the meeting, someone else says the same brilliant thing—often it's a man, only because there's gonna be so many men in these meetings.
What's a male ally to do in that situation when they notice an idea has been hijacked by someone else? They can say something simple, like, "Yeah, I really like that idea, and when Jen said it a few minutes ago, she phrased it this way. I like the way you've built on it," or something like that. Another every day action a man can take to help the women and underrepresented minorities be successful.
Poornima: It's great that you are coaching men to have these everyday actions that are important and impactful. You have any others that you would like to share?
Karen Catlin: Oh, sure. Here's another space, I'll call it—forget about meetings, let's move on from meetings. We all need to have networks to be successful, to hear about opportunities, to hire from, right? When we're trying to fill roles at our company or to find jobs if we're looking for jobs. If we let our networks grow naturally and organically, chances are, we're gonna have networks of people who are just like us. “Just like me” networks. We enjoy the same hobbies, we went to the same school, we enjoy doing and talking about the same things, right? That's just human nature to reach out to people we enjoy spending time with, that's our network.
I think we have a role to play, especially if we're a male ally, but we should really be looking to diversify our network, so that our networks aren't just like us and that they're filled with people who are of different backgrounds, different experiences, just went to different schools, worked at different companies and so forth. For men, specifically, I challenge them, if they go to some networking event, or a Friday afternoon beer bash or something, go introduce yourself to someone who doesn't look like you. You can define that however you want, but someone who doesn't look like you.
Poornima: Maybe shorter than you.
Karen Catlin: Maybe shorter, yes. Darker skin, gender, whatever it is. Say hello, get to know them a little bit and see if there isn't something that you can either learn from them or that you can do for them as a result. Just getting to know them a little bit. That challenge, I think, is important and I try to embrace it, too. When I go to a networking event, I tend to like to look for the women that I wanna meet and reach out to them. It's easier for me to have those conversations. It's a little bit more intimidating for me to go up to a young man in a hoodie and introduce myself and start a conversation. I try to do that myself, because I think it's important for me to diversify my network. It's good advice for not just male allies, but probably for all of us.
Poornima: Yep. Well, thank you so much Karen. This has been a lot of fun and I'm sure the audience is gonna get a lot out of this. Why don't you let us know how we can get in touch with you.
Karen Catlin: Sure. You can get in touch with me on my website, there's a contact page and that is karencatlin.com. If you want more everyday actions you can take to support diversity, inclusion, create a welcoming environment at your company, check out the Twitter handle @betterallies.
Poornima: Wonderful. Thank you. We'll be sure to share the links below the video. That's it for our episode on mentorship. Be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel to receive the next episode. If you've enjoyed this segment, then please be sure to share it with your friends and your colleagues. And finally, a special thanks to our sponsor, Pivotal Tracker. Ciao for now.
This episode of *Build* is brought to you by our sponsor, Pivotal Tracker.
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Build is produced as a partnership between Femgineer ((http://femgineer.com/) and Pivotal Tracker (http://www.pivotaltracker.com/). San Francisco video production by StartMotionMEDIA (http://www.startmotionmedia.com/design/).
Have you already tried mentoring and found that it’s not working for you?
Is it because you’re just not getting what you want out of it, or other people have convinced you it’s just not worth your time?
We get that something may go wrong, which is why in today’s episode we’re going to cover ALL the things that can go wrong with mentoring. But we won’t leave you hanging… Karen Catlin (https://karencatlin.com/) and I will provide concrete tips (including some exact script to use) for:
- Why you might consider finding a mentor inside versus outside your current company
- How you can go about setting clear expectations with your mentor
- How mentoring and coaching are different
- How to decide if it makes sense to pay for coaching
- Why it’s important to thank your mentor and how to do it effectively
In the next video, we’ll conclude our theme of mentoring by sharing how you can get started as a mentor!
Transcript
Poornima: In the last segment, we talked about the importance of mentorship and why some people may be reluctant to seeking out a mentor. If you've missed the segment, I've included a link to it below this video, so don't miss it and be sure to check it out. In today's segment, we're going to focus the conversation around how you can get the most out of mentoring. Welcome back to *Build*, brought to you by Pivotal Tracker. I'm your host, Poornima Vijayashanker. Each *Build* episode consists of a series of conversations I have with innovators in tech, and together we debunk a number of myths around building products, companies, and your career in technology, because I know there's a lot of people out there who may not be aware that they are doing things that are actively acting against them from having a good mentoring relationship.
Karen Catlin: Sure.
What not to talk about during mentoring
Poornima: Let's start by talking about what you should not expect to get out of that relationship.
Karen Catlin: In a word, gossip. I used to have a mentee who would come to my office for our monthly meetings, and would sit down and just say, "So, tell me what you're hearing about. What's going around the company?" Oh my gosh, like I wasn't just going to share all of the, you know, news I had heard to this person, you know?
Poornima: Right.
Karen Catlin: He was just looking for gossip and it basically turned into this mentoring relationship that I hated. I really did not look forward to those meetings because like he was probing me for intelligence. It wasn't cool.
Poornima: Yeah, yeah. It wasn't the purpose of the meeting.
When mentoring goes wrong
Karen Catlin: No. Can I tell you something else I've hated about mentoring? I had another mentee who we were working together, I think, for over a six-month period, once a month we had a meeting, and when we got together each time I would say to her, "So last time, you know, we talked about this. Did my advice help you?" Her response was various forms of, "Oh, you know, I've been too busy" or, "I didn't really think it was going to work so I didn't even try it out," but she was there to get more advice from me. Like, what was that all about, right? I was not fulfilled. I did not think my advice was helping her, and again, I hated those relationships.
Poornima: Yeah, so it didn't sound like it was something that would keep you engaged as the person who was doing the mentoring.
Karen Catlin: No, exactly.
Poornima: Anything else that people want to be doing?
Karen Catlin: I'm so glad you asked.
Poornima: Yeah.
Karen Catlin: The other pet peeve I have around this—and I bet most people in our audience here would be incredibly respectful of anyone's time that they were asking for mentorship—but I definitely have had people that have overstepped the bounds of that. You know, a meeting has been scheduled maybe for an hour and I can't get them to leave the office. It's like the hour is up and they keep talking, and they want me to keep providing advice. I'm just trying to get them out the door because I've got other things to do, so we really need to be respectful of the time and our time commitments there.
How to set expectations for your mentoring relationship
Poornima: OK, so now that we've talked about a number of things not to do, let's switch gears and talk about how to set expectations.
Karen Catlin: Sure. A mentee should really be looking to the mentor for advice, but really in the context of, "Have you ever experienced this situation before?" Or, "Tell me about a time you might have had to do something like this." For example, let's say that you wanted to approach a mentor because you had to learn about a certain market vertical, right? The worst question is to go to that mentor and say, "Tell me everything I need to know about this market vertical." It puts so much burden on the mentor to be like this educator in everything.
Poornima: We don't know where to start.
Karen Catlin: Any way, and we don't even know where to start. It's too big a question. Much better would be to approach the mentor and say, "Hey, I need to come up to speed on this market vertical. Can you tell me how you came up to speed and learned everything you know?"
Poornima: Nice.
Karen Catlin: Something like that. They then can share their experiences and start talking about how they have come up to speed on the market.
Poornima: Yeah. It's a lot more relatable and they have those experiences. They're not kind of fishing for things that may or may not be applicable. It's kind of your job as the mentee to figure out which piece of their experience relates back to you. Any other examples that you have?
Karen Catlin: Sure. I remember mentoring someone who came to me because she wanted to explore a lateral job move and she actually asked a really good question. She didn't come saying, "Hey, I have this opportunity to do this lateral job move. Do you think I should do it?" No. She didn't say that. Instead she said, "Hey, I'm thinking about this lateral job move. Have you ever taken a lateral job move and how did you make the decision to do it?" Then we were able to have a great conversation about it.
When does it make sense to pay for coaching?
Poornima: It's natural to start and have maybe a coffee conversation. There are a lot of mentors, though, who are also coaches that expect to be paid, so how do you know when it's time to hire somebody?
Karen Catlin: Mentors and coaches are similar and yet different as well. A mentor's job is to provide their experience, share their advice, those types of things. A coach probably has more of a discipline around helping a client in a certain way, whether that is a job transition that they're exploring and trying to put frameworks around that, or strengthening leadership skills, which is what I focus on, and every coach is different. I think a very simple way to think about this is, a coach will be—it's a business, and so there is a charge for that, and a mentor is a free thing.
One thing I'll say though is every coach has a different style depending on their experiences and their approaches to things, and I am a blend. Chances are I've walked a mile in my client's shoes because I've had such a long history in tech already and all my clients are in tech, so I do provide some mentoring in terms of my coachees might ask me something, my clients will ask me something, and if I have relevant experience, I'll share that story because I think it might help them, but then I'll also be putting more of a framework around helping them achieve their goals overtime and that's why it will end up...you know, there's a payment involved, there's a cost involved.
Poornima: Yeah. You're trying to get somebody to a milestone.
Karen Catlin: Exactly.
Poornima: You're trying to help them improve, and because there's a lot of structure around it, you then want to get paid for that versus like just general kind of coffee conversations.
Karen Catlin: Right. Exactly, exactly.
Poornima: For people who are evaluating when it makes sense to hire somebody, how would you recommend that they think about it?
Karen Catlin: Yes. I would recommend it in terms of, first of all, if you don't have a good mentoring situation or mentoring program at your company or in a community of some sort, then that's a time to explore coaching. I would also say that if you have a situation where you're trying to grow some skills and you're very much, "Here are my goals and here's what I want to get to," and you feel that it would be something you want to do not out in public, like you don't want anyone at your company to know you're working on these skills, again, you want to do it on your own and sort of on the side, you might want to hire a coach. It also might be that you want some professional help in terms of, yeah, you respect a lot of people that you work with, but are they the right people to help you get to this point that you're trying to get to in your career? It might be time to get an external perspective and some professional help.
Poornima: Yeah. I've also found that just having the accountability of meeting with somebody weekly, thinking of it as an investment, is really helpful.
Karen Catlin: Yes.
Poornima: Versus like, "Oh, can we grab coffee 30 minutes here, 30 minutes there?" A lot of times it's valuable, but you miss some of the context, and like you said, some of the framework that people you're paying for have done this over and over again.
How mentoring differs from coaching
Karen Catlin: Yeah. Here's an analogy. Let's say you think about your workouts, just to keep yourself healthy and so forth. You may have a workout buddy or a friend. You're going to go work out, go climbing, go for a walk, whatever. That's great, but if you really are serious about changing things up, you might hire a trainer at your gym to really get things moving in the right direction and get some professional help. That's similar to how you might approach coaching and mentoring. A mentor would be someone like, "Let's go for that walk together. Let's go climbing together." We're going to talk as we go, but it's going to be a little more casual. Then if you really want to get serious, you're going to hire the equivalent of the trainer at the gym. You're going to hire a coach for your career.
How to thank your mentor
Poornima: Last question for you in this segment. How about thanking your mentors, expressing your gratitude so that they know that their time was well spent, and they keep kind of looking out for you and want to work with you?
Karen Catlin: Yeah. Mentors, even if it looks like we are professional and successful, we still enjoy being treated to a cup of coffee or a lunch. You know, it's a nice touch, and of course flowers, wine, gadgets, Teslas. I don't know. Just have some fun there.
Poornima: Yeah. It'd be a toy Tesla.
Karen Catlin: A toy Tesla. There you go, but seriously, gifts are always nice, but I'll tell you the most meaningful thank yous I've gotten from my mentees have been when they have come and thanked me and told me, "This is how your advice has helped me." I remember I mentored someone when I was back at Adobe just over lunch one day. It was just a one-time, casual mentoring kind of thing. A year later, she reached out to me and said, "Hey, Karen. I want to thank you for that lunch we had a year ago. You told me these things and this is what I did, and I just got the promotion I was trying to go for." I remember I went to lunch, but I didn't remember everything I told her. I shared some advice, shared some stories, whatever.
For her to come back and say, "This helped me" was so important to me because that meant that I spent my time well, she really was paying attention and in sort of a circle kind of thing, it also helps me become a better mentor because now I know, "Oh, that story or that advice really resonated for her. I'll remember to use that again if someone is in a similar situation." So thank somebody by really telling them, "This is what you've shared with me. This is what you told me. This is what I did. Here's how it helped." That's the best thank you any mentor could ask for.
Poornima: No, that sounds great. Well, thank you for sharing that with all of us.
Karen Catlin: Sure. My pleasure.
Poornima: Karen and I want to know, are there expectations that you're looking to set with your potential mentor and you're wondering how to frame them? Let us know what they are in the comments below and we'll be sure to respond to them shortly. That's it for this segment. Subscribe to our YouTube channel to receive the next and final segment on mentoring where Karen and I will be talking about how you can become an effective mentor. Ciao for now.
This episode of *Build* is brought to you by our sponsor, Pivotal Tracker.
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Build is produced as a partnership between Femgineer ((http://femgineer.com/) and Pivotal Tracker (http://www.pivotaltracker.com/). San Francisco video production by StartMotionMEDIA (http://www.startmotionmedia.com/design/).
Welcome to Build brought to you by Pivotal Tracker! I’m your host, Poornima Vijayashanker.
Each Build episode consists of a series of conversations I have with innovators. Together we debunk myths and misconceptions related to building products, companies, and your career in tech.
One misconception I fell prey to early on in my career was staying heads down and waiting for someone to acknowledge my accomplishments.
The thought of tooting my own horn seemed too self-promotional. I was worried about what my teammates and boss would think.
It wasn’t until I came across people who helped me find my voice and style that I realized the disservice I had been doing to my career.
Through their guidance and support, I realized how beneficial mentors can be to your career.
While there’s been a lot of talk already about the need for mentors, in today’s segment we’re going to take a slightly different angle and explore:
In future segments, we’ll tackle how to effectively get a mentor, and how you can get started as a mentor!
To help us out I’ve invited Karen Catlin who is an Advocate for Women in Tech, a leadership coach, and my co-author on our book: Present! A Techie’s Guide to Public Speaking.
Transcript
Poornima: One misconception I fell prey to early on in my career was staying heads down and not talking about my accomplishments. I felt like it was too self-promotional to toot my own horn, and I worried about what my colleagues and my boss will think. It wasn't until I came across people who helped me find my voice, and told me that it was OK to share the work that I was doing, that I became more comfortable. And it was through their guidance that I realized how valuable that mentorship can be to catapulting your career.
While there's been a lot of talk already around mentorship, we're gonna dive a little bit deeper. In this segment, we'll dive into why you might be resistant to getting a mentor, and in future segments we'll talk about how to effectively approach a mentor, and if you wanna be a mentor, how to go about getting started.
Welcome to *Build*, brought to you by Pivotal Tracker. I'm your host, Poornima Vijayashanker. In each episode of *Build*, I'm going to be talking to innovators in tech, and together we're gonna be debunking myths and misconceptions related to building products, companies, and your career in tech. And to help us out, I've invited Karen Catlin, who is an advocate for women in tech, a leadership coach, and my co-author on our book, *Present! A Techie's Guide to Public Speaking*. Thanks so much for joining me, Karen.
Karen Catlin: Oh my gosh, it's my pleasure, Poornima, thanks for having me.
Poornima: Yeah. This is such an exciting episode for me, 'cause you and I have been working closely for a number of years. Now, for our audience out there, I wanna go back a little bit to your days as a VP at Adobe, and walk us through what you were working on there.
Karen Catlin: Sure, sure. So I joined Adobe through the acquisition of Macromedia, so I actually worked at those two companies for 17 years, so a big bulk of my career. And while I was the Vice President there, I ran the shared engineering services, which included things like product security, product globalization, our open source, our engineering productivity tools, accessibility work. All sorts of things that we hire deep experts in those areas, and then worked across the product teams to help them with their product releases.
Poornima: In addition to your role as VP at Adobe, you were also mentoring a lot of people. Walk us through why you decided to do this.
Karen Catlin: Sure. And I actually started mentoring people much earlier in my career. I remember at one point, at Macromedia, I was a program manager, and in fact I was the only program manager for the company at the time, and I worked on a very early version of Dreamweaver, which you may remember. And as other product teams started hiring program managers, I offered to help hire them and train them, and bring them up to speed. And because of that interaction, a lot of those program managers, by default, kind of started looking to me for ongoing mentorship about how to be successful in their role. So it started out really there. And then, certainly I just kept continuing to do that as I moved up with my career and into the VP level.
Poornima: That's great that you were doing a lot of corporate mentorship, but as I know it, you also had been mentoring outside of Adobe and other companies that you worked at. Talk to us about the kind of mentorship you did outside of the company.
Karen Catlin: Sure. So there are quite a few ways to get involved in, formal mentoring programs, I'll call it, and I do that through...for example, my alma mater, where I mentor a senior, an undergraduate, who's about to start her career, and I provide mentoring during her senior year, which is great. And I get matched with someone, and it's a nice way for me to give back to the university, as well as to learn about what a senior is going through right now in her life, and trying to figure out and navigate the career options and so forth.
I also do more informal mentoring, which I like to call micro mentoring, and I do that through The Women's Club of Silicon Valley, where I've been a member of that for a number of years. I've been on their board, and I certainly love helping our members with anything that they might need some advice on, some help on. And I call it more informal because we're not matched, people just reach out to me if they have advice that they want to seek, they wanna get my experience that I've had on something. And they'll just reach out and say, "Can we get a cup of coffee, get together for lunch," something like that. So it's much more informal and kind of organic that way.
Why is it good to have a mentor
Poornima: So let's dive into kind of the bigger theme here, right? 'Cause I know a lot of people say that mentoring is important, but why is it even important? Like, why do we need to do this, why can't we just read books, or ask our boss, or ask our colleagues for help when we need it?
Karen Catlin: Yeah. So first of all, I think that I enjoy mentoring because I wanna pay it forward. I want to share my experience, and help other people who might be going through similar challenges, or similar choices that they need to make, to learn from my experience. And I hate reinventing the wheel, so if I can help other people not have to reinvent the wheel themselves, if they're going through the same type of situation that I'm going through, I'd love to—or, have gone through, excuse me—I would love to share my experience with them.
And this whole notion of paying it forward is one reason I mentor, but it's really a two-way street. Every time I mentor someone, I learn something from them, too—it's just not me providing my advice, I learn from them. I might learn about, you know, good new books or podcasts I should be listening to. I might learn about new productivity tools that are just, you know, a new app to do something that I had never heard off. When I was a VP I also might hear about certain challenges that people are facing, that actually helped me be a better leader, because I got intel and insight into what was going on around the organization that I might not otherwise hear about.
When is mentoring appropriate
Poornima: Yup. And for the mentee side, what are the benefits for them?
Karen Catlin: Oh, sure. So the mentees, they get to have a sounding board. For example, if they are trying to decide something, get some advice, they get to hear someone else's perspective on that. They get to hear stories about a time that that mentor maybe went through something similar, and then they can learn from that. And they just might be able to take a step back from that day to day, I'm working, I'm getting stuff done, let me step back and think about what I should be doing with my career, these choices ahead of me, how I should think about a problem differently, or a situation differently. So, so many benefits to a mentee.
What is a mentor versus a sponsor
Poornima: I've also heard of this word, sponsor, and I'm sure some of our audience has as well, so walk us through what's the difference between a mentor versus a sponsor.
Karen Catlin: Sure. So they're very different, although they may sometimes be the same person. But let me break it down. A mentor is someone that you might meet with to get their advice, and they should share their stories, their life experiences, their perspective on things, so that you get that insight into what they, you know, how they think about things. By contrast, a sponsor is someone who is influential at your company, or in your industry segment, and they are going to be in situations, meetings, different situations where they will find out about opportunities that they might think of you as a good person to fill. So they will open doors for you that you might not even know exist, right? So that's what a sponsor does, they know you well enough to recommend you for opportunities, and to support you that way.
Poornima: Yeah, a little bit more directed, then.
Karen Catlin: Yes, exactly. But you might not even know you have a sponsor. They might just be doing this behind the scenes, and opportunities are coming your way and you're not even sure why they happen. So sometimes you don't even know you have a sponsor.
Why people are resistant to mentoring
Poornima: Nice. Now, not everyone wants a mentor, why do you think people are resistant to seeking one?
Karen Catlin: Yeah, so in my current role as an advocate for women who are working the tech industry, I have talked to hundreds of women about mentoring and the importance of mentors, and the two things I hear from many women—there's a theme. The first is, "Ooh, it's so awkward to go up to someone, or send a note, and say 'Hey, would you be my mentor?'" You know, that's awkward and a little intimidating, so they don't wanna do it for that reason. And then the second reason is that they think they're imposing on someone. Everyone's so busy in tech, right? Super busy, and so why would some important person wanna take any time out to help me, right? It's an imposition, and I don't wanna go there.
Poornima: Yeah. And what would you recommend to kind of getting over those hurdles, if that's what's holding you back?
Mentoring what to expect
Karen Catlin: Right, right. So I like to break it down with my coaching clients, as I encourage them to find mentors in their companies, I like to break it down in terms of, be very specific about your ask. For example, let's say your goal is to file your first patent. That's a really clear goal, and there are...then you can look at, who do I respect around the organization who's filed a patent, and send a simple note saying, "Hey, I'd love to file a patent and I would like to have lunch with you to find out about your experience with patent filing." You know, just really simple, concise, direct, this is what I would like to do.
Sometimes it might be a longer term mentorship, so another example of an ask might be, "I'm very interested in growing my career to the director level. Would you mind meeting with me for three months, once a month, for half an hour or something. I'll bring the questions, you bring the advice." Right? Just be very specific about what you need. You don't even have to say mentoring, like, that feels awkward. Just say, this is my ask, can you help me?
And you'll notice with both of those, whether it's a one-off or a longer term thing, I time boxed it, right? And I think this notion of time boxing is really critical when you reach out to a mentor. If I were to say to you, "Hey Poornima, would you mentor me?" You'd be like, "What's that mean?" Like, what does that even entail? What are they asking me to do? But if I can say, "Would you meet with me for half an hour, once a month for three months," you know exactly what you're getting into, and it's a whole lot easier for you to say "Yes," or maybe, "Not right now, I'm too busy," if that's the case, right?
How mentoring relationships evolve
Poornima: Yeah. Or, let's do a couple meetings first, and then if it works out, there's chemistry, you like what I'm saying, then maybe we'll do a full three months, but let's not get—
Karen Catlin: Exactly. And by the way, at the end of that time box period, let's say that is a three-month, or a six-month engagement, if things are gelling and you still wanna be learning from that mentor, and the mentor wants to continue meeting with the mentee, you can continue it. You can renew it for another period of time, another six months, three months, whatever that is. Yeah.
Poornima: Thank you so much Karen, I think that's a great place to get started with mentoring. And for all of you out there, if there was a hurdle that Karen and I didn't cover in today's segment, let us know what that is in the comments below, and we'll be sure to answer it shortly.
That's it for this segment. Subscribe to our YouTube channel to get the next segment, where we'll continue the conversation, and talk about how to get the most out of your mentorship. Ciao for now.
This episode of *Build* is brought to you by our sponsor, Pivotal Tracker.
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Build is produced as a partnership between Femgineer ((http://femgineer.com/) and Pivotal Tracker (http://www.pivotaltracker.com/). San Francisco video production by StartMotionMEDIA (http://www.startmotionmedia.com/design/).